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RELAY
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N9ZZK  



Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 3:55 am    Post subject: RELAY Reply with quote

I am receiving bulletins from NS9RC prompting for the change from RELAY to Wide1-1. I am wondering if the big digi's, (WB9WOZ-15, W9AZ-15) have killed RELAY support at their sites and if not, are they gong to set a target date to implement?
Art
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KK9H  



Joined: 29 Jun 2004
Posts: 40
Location: Northfield, IL

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 7:17 am    Post subject: RELAY Reply with quote

The WB9WOZ-15 digi has already dropped RELAY. W9AZ-15 and NS9RC are still supporting it for the time being. APRS digi operators and users in Lake County (IL) have chosen a date of June 30 to drop RELAY.

The new SSn state digi capability is operational on all these digis so a path of IL2-2, etc. can now also be used.

Don KK9H
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ka9vnv  
Site Admin


Joined: 08 Jun 2004
Posts: 152
Location: Woodstock, IL

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While no longer a "big digi", the KA9VNV-15 digipeater is going to continue supporting RELAY for the foreseeable future, simply because there aren't that many home stations in our area to take up the slack.

Unless, of course, we're no longer supposed to use RELAY as the first hop on mobile packets... in which case, I'll have to go reprogram a few trackers.
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KK9H  



Joined: 29 Jun 2004
Posts: 40
Location: Northfield, IL

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 8:04 am    Post subject: RELAY, digi operations and WB4APR's New Paradigm Reply with quote

The impetus behind all of this is Bob Bruninga's recent discussions on improving the 144.39 MHz APRS network's efficiency. He calls it the "New Paradigm." Everything you would ever want to know about this subject can be found at this link:

http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/aprs/fix14439.html

With respect to RELAY being considered obsolete and phasing it out, this link will take you right to Mr. Bruninga's thoughts on that subject:

http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/aprs/relayFIX.txt

Lastly, if you have a KPC3+ and want to see the recommended way to set it up as a digi under this concept, here's the link:

http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/aprs/kpc3+WIDEn.txt

I hope this is helpful.

Don
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ka9vnv  
Site Admin


Joined: 08 Jun 2004
Posts: 152
Location: Woodstock, IL

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, so Bob's come up with yet another fix for APRS that is incompatible with one of his previous fixes. I've seen this before. He especially likes to do this just after a workaround for the problems of his last "fix" is formulated.

Quote:
The original APRS path method of RELAY is obsolete and its legacy causes 2 to 5 times as many duplicated packets as required for those stations
that use it.


So the solution is to change the alias to one that will be abused just as badly, after a transition to eliminate RELAY. The only reason "WIDE1-1" has a chance of working as he intends it is that people will have to think about the change when their area makes the transition... But 50 "WIDE1-1" digis will make the same QRM as 50 "RELAY" digis. What is needed is smarter RELAY digis!

I proposed a solution several years ago - a "delayed" RELAY, that would only relay a heard packet if it did not hear another station RELAY it after X seconds. You would set up wide-area digis to instantly respond to RELAY, and all home stations would do delayed-relay. It would fill the gaps in coverage, but ONLY if needed.

The major change needed would be to make all the fixed-station APRS software smart enough to talk to the TNC in KISS mode, and add the algorithm. Mobile operators don't have to change. Home stations are "always" are updating their software to the latest features...

Edit, added in:

Quote:
... it always looks like a WIDEn-N packet and the WIDEn-N system has the perfect DUPE-ELIMINATION algorithm.


And it also will fail for Bob's precious Vicinity Tracking (tm), because he wants the WIDEn-n set to not ID. Or, is this why he wants WIDE put in for the UITRACE call, which he previously said was a bad thing?
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KK9H  



Joined: 29 Jun 2004
Posts: 40
Location: Northfield, IL

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand that ID is supposed to be operational with the way this is supposed to work. I believe Bruninga even states somewhere that the old ID or NOID issue goes away with this method of programming digis.

Your idea of a delayed RELAY digi (or a delayed WIDE1-1 digi) is an interesting concept. I think it would work well.

Don
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wb9woz  



Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 8:10 pm    Post subject: new wide-n Paradigm Reply with quote

looks like the new programming is working. The original path of this packet was RELAY,WIDE3-3. Same thing TRACE used to do.

1:Fm NA9D To ID Via RELAY,WB9WOZ-15,W9AZ-15,KB9SZK-15,WIDE3* <UI pid=F0 Len=24 >[20:51:01]
NA9D/R RELAY/D NA9D-3/B

woz-15 will not digipeat any path longer then wide3-3.
RELAY was dropped in favor of wide1-1, but home stations should still have an alias of RELAY so mobiles can keep the path of RELAY,WIDE2-2 or whatever local variant works.

But that brings up another point. Most home stations might use a kpc-3. If the alias is set up for RELAY, and that station digipeats a mobile, would it be better for the RELAY to stay RELAY or have the tnc do a call substitution ?

bruce
wb9woz
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ka9vnv  
Site Admin


Joined: 08 Jun 2004
Posts: 152
Location: Woodstock, IL

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 9:36 pm    Post subject: Re: new wide-n Paradigm Reply with quote

wb9woz wrote:
But that brings up another point. Most home stations might use a kpc-3. If the alias is set up for RELAY, and that station digipeats a mobile, would it be better for the RELAY to stay RELAY or have the tnc do a call substitution ?


The answer is, "Call substitution". In my opinion, since it is possible to do so, any digipeating done by a TNC should be ID'd by using call substitution, so that HID packets become unnecessary for satisfying the FCC. And, while Bob disagrees with me on some points of that, I am sure he would also call for Call Substitution in this case, because that is the basis for his Vicinity Tracking(tm) feature - the first hop must be identified.
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N9ZZK  



Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 7:50 am    Post subject: Thank-you Reply with quote

Thank you all for your responses,
Given the drop dead date for RELAY support of June 30th, KB9SZK digi,located in Morris, will discontinue support of RELAY on 6/21. Tonight, I will be configuring it to support the WIDE1-1 as well as RELAY. It currently is configured as a trapping Wn-n digi in much the same way as WB9WOZ-15 is set. (ie:hears Wide7-5, sends Wide7*) but after this evening it will be a RELAY and WIDE1-1 only with call subsitution.

KB9SZK-15, located in Coal City is configured as a trapping digi with call subsitution as well. Neither of the digi's support the IL paradigm. I didn't think it was necessary after monitoring packet activity in the area. W9AZ-15 to our East and W9MKS-15 to our West seem to reliably exchange IL and I didn't feel it necessary to add a middle man and create more QRM for the area. Please let me know if you feel different.

I agree with KA9VNV position on use of call subsitution for another reason. It benefits me to see where the fill in digi's are located and make a better determination if they are needed or not. Simply having a RELAY* doesn't gve me a clue as to where that particular packet orginated from.

I am also inclined to support the use of Wide1-1 for mobiles. Simply because of Bruningas push to make this a "national standard" for mobiles. No need for out-of-area travelers to adjust there path coming into this area and there will be no need to adjust my path should I travel out-of-area. Granted, with our terrain and coverage, a mobile can use reliably Wide2-2 but do you want to have to adjust your path at the turn of every other region?

Art/N9ZZK
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KK9H  



Joined: 29 Jun 2004
Posts: 40
Location: Northfield, IL

PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 3:36 pm    Post subject: RELAY* Reply with quote

I agree completely that callsign substitution is helpful in seeing the origination of a posit. Down toward N9ZZK the W9AZ-15 digi is programmed to trap WIDE3-3 through WIDE6-6 since it is in a major metropolitan area. The only available way that RELAY compatibility could be maintained with the KPC3+ TNC was to put it in MYALIAS. That's why there is no callsign substitution and why you see RELAY*. Eventually the RELAY will be turned off, possibly on June 30 as has been mentioned elsewhere.

Don KK9H
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W9GWP  



Joined: 01 Feb 2005
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 2:56 pm    Post subject: Relay update Reply with quote

Quote:
The WB9WOZ-15 digi has already dropped RELAY. W9AZ-15 and NS9RC are still supporting it for the time being. APRS digi operators and users in Lake County (IL) have chosen a date of June 30 to drop RELAY.

The new SSn state digi capability is operational on all these digis so a path of IL2-2, etc. can now also be used.

Don KK9H



The Lake County area operators and "digi's" are ahead of the June 30 sked for switching over. RELAY is now no longer supported by any of the former home "relay" digi's. They all support WIDE1-1 now. N9IJ-10 is also supporting ILn-N. A new site is being sought for N9IJ-10 to help improve coverage. Most home / fixed stations are now also using a path of IL2-2 or <callsign>IL2-2 depending if they need a hop to get to N9IJ-10 to help reduce packets from going over the boarder.
73,
George
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KK9H  



Joined: 29 Jun 2004
Posts: 40
Location: Northfield, IL

PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 10:18 am    Post subject: RELAY Reply with quote

NS9RC and W9AZ-15 have now dropped RELAY along with WB9WOZ-15 and the Lake County digis.

Don
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N9WYS  



Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 3
Location: Minooka, IL EN51vk

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:04 pm    Post subject: Thoroughly confused now... Reply with quote

OK - now I'm thoroughly confused.

I run a home station that doubles as a digi. Rather than try to play catch-up with the paradigm thing, can someone give me a "Reader's Digest" version of how I need to set-up my station for proper APRS operation?? I'm in Minooka (border of Will/Grundy counties) and want to provide digi coverage for those traveling along I-55 and I-80 in the vicinity of my station. I can hear and hit W9AZ-15 easily, along with both of the KB9SZK digis.

I am running UI-View32, and here is what I currently have:

Station Setup: APRS,WIDE2-2 (I'm told "APRS" is needed in UI-View...)

Digipeater setup: Enable Digi / Alias Substitution
Aliases: N9WYS-15,WIDE2-2

#1. Am I correct in assuming that my station will digipeat any station that is heard sending "WIDE", or does it need to be exactly "WIDE2-2"? And, last question (really!) should the aliases be reversed (WIDE2-2,N9WYS-15) or, in other words, is the syntax a priority?

#2. I have a KPC-3 (not a plus version) running v8.2 firmware, but I have no manual for the added commands. Can this be set to run without UI-View running, or do I need to have the UI-View software controlling the TNC/station?

So many questions - so little understanding... hehehe

Thanks....
Mark - N9WYS
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Robbie  



Joined: 02 Jul 2004
Posts: 32
Location: Buffalo Grove, IL

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 4:39 pm    Post subject: RELAY vs WIDE1-1 Reply with quote

It was suggested I post this here rather than discuss it via email..

I was suggesting to a couple users, one a very new one, and the other not new, that they should use the new paradigm, WIDE1-1,WIDE2-2..

Guess what? This does not work for them! One travels from Crystal Lake out to Belvidere, the other from Lake in the Hills to Elk Grove Village...

While near their homes, AB9DO is set up to digipeate the WIDE1-1 to help that area make it to the big digipeaters, NS9RC, WB9WOZ-15, K9MOT, N9IJ-10 and out west to KA9VNV-15 or WA9CJN-15..

Turns out K9MOT is still a RELAY only digipeater, K9SA is also. KA9VNV-15 will digipeat a WIDEn-N, but if it is a WIDE1-1, it digipeats it as "used up"! so no other digipeater will act upon a WIDE, or a WIDE1 which is in the path coming out of KA9VNV-15. If KA9VNV-15 sees a WIDE2-2, it does the decrement, and sends it out and the others see it as a regular WIDE2-1 and they in turn digipeats it one more time..

The K9MOT seeing a RELAY,WIDE2-2 will digipeat and the WIDE2-2 will be acted upon..

A mobile running just WIDEn-N would be better until every digipeater gets on the same page.

It also was mentioned that shouldn't the Chicagoland mobiles run just WIDE1-1,IL2-2, or Just IL2-2.. Then this mobile will still have to alter his route whenever he goes anywhere away from the "Chicagoland area"..

Also, how is the traveling motorist going to fair driving through this fragmented Northern Illinois territory.. Maybe, I just thought of the answer.. Be patient! Smile

Newcomers, take your pick....

Robbie

Signed
Robbie, wa9inf
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Bill Diaz  



Joined: 24 Jul 2004
Posts: 21
Location: Lockport,IL

PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 8:28 pm    Post subject: Re: RELAY vs WIDE1-1 Reply with quote

Robbie wrote:
It was suggested I post this here rather than discuss it via email..

I was suggesting to a couple users, one a very new one, and the other not new, that they should use the new paradigm, WIDE1-1,WIDE2-2..

Guess what? This does not work for them! One travels from Crystal Lake out to Belvidere, the other from Lake in the Hills to Elk Grove Village...

SNIP

A mobile running just WIDEn-N would be better until every digipeater gets on the same page.

It also was mentioned that shouldn't the Chicagoland mobiles run just WIDE1-1,IL2-2, or Just IL2-2.. Then this mobile will still have to alter his route whenever he goes anywhere away from the "Chicagoland area"..

Also, how is the traveling motorist going to fair driving through this fragmented Northern Illinois territory.. Maybe, I just thought of the answer.. Be patient! Smile

Newcomers, take your pick....

Robbie


I have to disagree. If users do not switch to Widen-N, we will never get rid of RELAY, WIDE and the multitude of problems caused by this path.

I use WIDE2-1 for my fixed station, and WIDE1-1,WIDE2-2 for my mobile. Sure, some non-current digis don't digipeat my signals now, but that will change before long.

Bill KC9XG
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